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General Category => TED5000 Support => Topic started by: martingugino on April 24, 2011, 10:32:41 AM

Title: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: martingugino on April 24, 2011, 10:32:41 AM
Q1) If using a second MTU to monitor a single breaker, I would like a smaller current transformer to fit around the smaller wires. Does TEDco have any plans for that? Would it be possible to jury-rig something?

Q2) In single breaker monitoring, can I leave one current transformer unattached, or do I need to attach it to a ground wire?

Second MTU's for single breaker tracking seem like a natural for TED. More hardware revenue. Takes the pressure of the "Load Identification" programming effort. Meets a perceived need.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: rotus8 on April 25, 2011, 04:20:05 AM
Q2) Leave the unused CT clamped around air only.

One problem with the "single breaker" option is that the gateway can only handle a maximum for four MTUs. Remember that the little brick you plugged into the wall and your network is doing the work a whole rack of equipment was required for a couple of years ago. I think it does a lot for what it is, and the price you pay for it. I do agree that a smaller pickup option would be nice.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: martingugino on April 25, 2011, 07:51:02 AM
re; I think it does a lot for what it is, and the price you pay for it.
Yes I agree.

Re: that the gateway can only handle a maximum for four MTUs.
Yes it would be awesome if the system captured each breaker (or ten), and you could look at each one, one at a time.

Q3) Instead of leaving the other current transformer clipped on air, you could clip it to another breaker on the alternate cycle. Might as well.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: TEDSupport6 on April 25, 2011, 10:16:13 AM
Quote
Q1) If using a second MTU to monitor a single breaker, I would like a smaller current transformer to fit around the smaller wires. Does TEDco have any plans for that?
Nothing in the works for smaller CTs at this time.

Quote
Q2) In single breaker monitoring, can I leave one current transformer unattached, or do I need to attach it to a ground wire?
This is what we recommend when monitoring a single circuit.
Quote
Instead of leaving the other current transformer clipped on air, you could clip it to another breaker on the alternate cycle. Might as well.
This option is fine as well, just keep in mind that the MTU is going to add these two figures together and the software cannot "separate" them out.

Quote
Yes it would be awesome if the system captured each breaker (or ten), and you could look at each one, one at a time.
TED5000 is really designed to monitor whole-house consumption (and/or generation), with the potential to monitor a few large loads in the home as well.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: martingugino on April 25, 2011, 10:56:59 AM
Quote
TED5000 is really designed to monitor whole-house consumption (and/or generation), with the potential to monitor a few large loads in the home as well.
sigh.

Are you saying it wouldn't be a nice advance, or are you saying it would be too hard to do?
Because if it would be a nice advance, and not too hard, what it was really designed to do would be of historical interest, only. 

==
The least disruptive new device would be an octopus with six mini CT transformers, for monitoring up to 6 breakers. The gateway can handle 4 MTUs, so no change required there.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: rotus8 on April 26, 2011, 07:27:54 AM
There is another company selling a system that will monitor up to 12 channels, but it is a LOT more expensive, starting at $650 for a two channel system.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: stanar on April 26, 2011, 08:59:39 AM
Slightly off topic:

All these different energy monitoring systems will show real time usage of the whole use are individual appliances. But wont be in sync with the utility bill unless the device makers work with the energy providers. There are some providers offering the real time usage directly for water, gas, and electricity. But we still have a long way to go to get all the providers to offer these features.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: martingugino on April 26, 2011, 12:41:31 PM
I don't happen to be so interested in the billing side of it. I am mostly interesting in learning about usage, and maybe trying to conserve.  If we get to "smart grid" billing, where I get a lower base rate in exchange for higher rates during high demand, then I will need something besides TED anyway.  

So I don't think that the companies like TEDco need to work all that much with the utilities. I see requests in the forum to accommodate additional rate structures, but as far as I am concerned, that's wasted effort. However, I would like to be able to enter a current meter reading, and have TED try to keep in sync, just as a high level check.  It wouldn't be that hard.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: martingugino on April 26, 2011, 07:38:24 PM
Quote
there is another company that monitors 12
What is the product? It's not the Black&Decker device. I'd like to see what they have, as often new features are developed to meet the competition's capabilities.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: rotus8 on April 27, 2011, 05:53:50 AM
Quote
there is another company that monitors 12
What is the product? It's not the Black&Decker device. I'd like to see what they have, as often new features are developed to meet the competition's capabilities.
PM sent.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: martingugino on April 28, 2011, 11:44:20 AM
Can TED work with other commercially available CTs? Or more generally, is there any other equipment that is approved for use with a TED installation?
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: stanar on April 28, 2011, 04:32:04 PM
Quote
there is another company that monitors 12
What is the product? It's not the Black&Decker device. I'd like to see what they have, as often new features are developed to meet the competition's capabilities.

If you go to google.com/powermeter without signing in, and click on get powermeter, you will see a bunch of options.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: dannyted on April 29, 2011, 05:10:08 PM
I was thinking the same as one of the posts above.  It would be nice if we knew what the ct would need to output so that we could tie our own ct into the gateway.  I would love to have a smaller ct to monitor some circuits inside of my subpanel
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: martingugino on May 12, 2011, 04:26:51 AM
Quote
Instead of leaving the other current transformer clipped on air, you could clip it to another breaker on the alternate cycle. Might as well.
This option is fine as well, just keep in mind that the MTU is going to add these two figures together and the software cannot "separate" them out.

Does the load identification feature key on which MTU it is?
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: rotus8 on May 12, 2011, 07:21:09 AM
Does the load identification feature key on which MTU it is?
Unfortunately no. This would be a great feature to add to the next release.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: jbatchelor51 on July 01, 2011, 06:52:33 PM
How about integrating something like this:

http://www.ladyada.net/make/tweetawatt/

its Xbee based.. leaving a PC on all the time to connect and log or send to remote log is not ideal...
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: SherlockOhms on July 14, 2011, 09:20:51 PM
There are some things under consideration  more info soon.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: martingugino on December 18, 2011, 12:19:50 PM
There are some things under consideration  more info soon.

Was there more info?
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: martingugino on December 18, 2011, 12:30:44 PM
Does the load identification feature key on which MTU it is?
Unfortunately no. This would be a great feature to add to the next release.

Possibly, but since I can't get load identification to work at all, I am not that interested.
This was just a sanity-check question. [Fail]
And I wouldn't want to see any available resources diverted to this item rather than to, say, removing "activate Google Powermeter" from the menus, or adding the date to the graphs, or plotting outside temperature, or posting a prioritized list of features being worked on, considered, postponed, rejected. 
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: rotus8 on December 18, 2011, 04:30:41 PM
Actually, this last feature is in the current release. Doesn't help much though.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: martingugino on December 19, 2011, 03:27:34 AM
Ah, yes, I see.  Pity.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: htroberts on July 06, 2012, 06:06:48 AM
Quote
there is another company that monitors 12
What is the product? It's not the Black&Decker device. I'd like to see what they have, as often new features are developed to meet the competition's capabilities.

I'm new here, hopefully mentioning other products isn't taboo--I think they're in divergent enough market space to not really be competition (plus, I would hope that this industry is small enough and growing quickly enough for everyone to see most if not all players do well)--anyway, there's a product called emonitor from "powerhouse dynamics" that will do 44 circuits.

I found this thread because I'd also like to use smaller CTs--ideally a torroidal and just big enough to pass a #00 THHN.

I haven't bought a TED yet, but will probably do so and am pretty psyched about using one. I found TED looking for a data source for plotwatt.com, who's local to me, but I see that there are several other places to send data to analyze.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: RussellH on July 06, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
Q1) If using a second MTU to monitor a single breaker, I would like a smaller current transformer to fit around the smaller wires. Does TEDco have any plans for that? Would it be possible to jury-rig something?

Just out of curiosity, what about a device in the "Kill-A-Watt" form factor to monitor individual loads?  One problem with the Kill-A-Watt is that you can't really stick it behind the refrigerator and expect to read it.  Trying to extend the wiring to where you can see is is messy.  Being able to chart the load use would be another advantage.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: htroberts on July 07, 2012, 05:24:39 AM
Just out of curiosity, what about a device in the "Kill-A-Watt" form factor to monitor individual loads?  One problem with the Kill-A-Watt is that you can't really stick it behind the refrigerator and expect to read it.  Trying to extend the wiring to where you can see is is messy.  Being able to chart the load use would be another advantage.

Well, for one thing, you could only use it to monitor plug-in loads. For another, it would need its own PLC modem--not a big deal for one, but a fair bit of extra expense if you want to look at 20-40 loads. Also, you could monitor each circuit in a typical house or small office with <30 CTs in the service panel, but you might need twice as many plug-in boxes.

I'm pretty intrigued by the load profiling, where people are separating consumption algorithmically instead of with individual circuit monitors. That may obviate the need for so many current loggers.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: RussellH on July 07, 2012, 09:57:37 PM
Well, for one thing, you could only use it to monitor plug-in loads.

Correct.  That's a given

For another, it would need its own PLC modem

I'd imagine it would be no more expensive then a MTU.  The idea is to look at specific loads.  For example, your home theater system.  It's likely plugged into the same circuits as other loads, so you can't distinguish it at the breaker panel.  And the load is too variable for load profiling. And you can move it around to get an idea what different devices draw while still integrating with the rest of TED.

I'm pretty intrigued by the load profiling, where people are separating consumption algorithmically instead of with individual circuit monitors. That may obviate the need for so many current loggers.

You're going to have to do it a better way then how TED does it.  It only marginally works.  And only for loads whose current draw is much different (higher) then anything else.  I've gotten it to work for my water heater, but not my refrigerator.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: htroberts on July 27, 2012, 10:59:32 PM

You're going to have to do it a better way then how TED does it.  It only marginally works.  And only for loads whose current draw is much different (higher) then anything else.  I've gotten it to work for my water heater, but not my refrigerator.


Have you tried plotwatt.com? (I have not, because I don't yet have a data source like a TED, but they claim to be able to do this (load identification/separation through data analysis, without individual meters) to a fairly fine degree)

If you have a TED meter, as I understand it, all you'd have to do is send your data to plotwatt.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: John on July 28, 2012, 08:54:58 PM

I have a TED5000.

Can a "plotwatt" user share his experience?

Regards, John.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: funat120mph on August 12, 2012, 07:16:06 AM
I use plotwatt.  The graphing is great and so is support.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: Support7 on August 13, 2012, 11:11:36 PM

I have a TED5000.

Can a "plotwatt" user share his experience?

Regards, John.

Feel free to share your experiences, John, and have a great day!

TED Support
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: RussellH on August 14, 2012, 08:58:36 PM
I use plotwatt.  The graphing is great and so is support.

What does it do besides graphing?  Is it able to break out the various appliances based on a pattern?
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: funat120mph on August 15, 2012, 08:29:58 PM
Plotwatt graphs the data very well.  They also use an algorithm to break usage into appliances.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: John on August 16, 2012, 11:33:23 PM


I have a TED5000 for almost a Year.(Two Mtu,s/Whole Home/Water heater).

The unit works as advertised. (Works great for me).

The only issue I had was the billing period of June.
A thunderstorm messed up the kwh readings. (Three short hydro-black-outs in less the 5 min).
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: 3rdStng on September 29, 2012, 10:16:18 PM
Can TED work with other commercially available CTs? Or more generally, is there any other equipment that is approved for use with a TED installation?
I don't believe this question was ever answered.  Does anyone know if TED will support other CT's?  I just upgraded my main panel and the main feeds are actually bus lines instead of wires now.  The space between the bottom of the panel and where these bus bars connect is smaller than the actual clamps themselves.  What I was wondering is if I could purchase some Flexible CT's and splice the wires off the Flex CT's into the wires that plug into the MTU.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: TEDSupport6 on October 02, 2012, 11:34:02 PM
TED is not designed to work with other CTs. If your panel has solid bus bars, you should be able to contact your utility company and have them come out to install your CTs on the meter side of the panel, where the leads are not enclosed. Chances are that they've already encountered other TED customers with the same request.
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: jeff on October 04, 2012, 09:21:34 PM
QUESTION REGARDING POSSIBLE INDUCTION ERRORS INTRODUCED  WHEN  MULTIPLE MTU / CT SETS ARE INSTALLED IN A CONGESTED SMALL SPACE.
Gentlemen:
I am in Peoria Arizona (Phoenix).   I am the proud owner of a TED 5000 with four MTU / CT sets.   I purchased your product in order to gain accurate data on my electric consumption and demand.
I am on a TOU rate with a smart meter (have over 800 days of data from the utility).  Unfortunately, my utility does not include demand in the TOU; and, therefore does not record demand data.  Plus their data sums for on peak and off peak; not  hour  specific.  Another problem is the read times are not the same time each day; AND, if no day read; then, an extrapolated estimate that day based on some unknown history algorithm.  What a country! 
I am seriously considering a grid tie solar system.   In order to make an intelligent decision on system size; (and cost!).   I decided to use your equipment to create a data base of actual consumption and demand and combine with a solar calendar by day and hour.  My TOU has different  Summer  and  Winter  on peak and off peak time periods.  Regardless of the season; TOU on peak (some) occurs during NO PRODUCTIVE SUNLIGHT.
My home uses gas for:  Heat; water heat; and, range cooking.
Major electric loads are two AC units (split Compressors  /  Condensers outside / two  air handlers in gas furnaces; both in attic).  Then a clothes dryer; plus other normal household TVs; Computers; and, appliances. Im loving my TED. So far just installed on main panel feed circuit.  It appears that my VAMPIRE LOAD is running  about 0.75 KW  24 / 7!!!
Your asking - - Why is he writing this???   
Look at the attached PDF photos.  If I go with the Solar; Im concerned the main panel will become too congested depending on the interconnect configuration.   See photo 2.  The main panel and meter are on the outside front corner of the garage.  I have built a MULTI CIRCUIT MTU / CT PANEL that, when installed will be on the inside of the garage; lined up with the main panel on the outside.  The three circuits to be monitored will be extended and loop through the MTU panel.  See photos page 1.  I may move the main feed MTU into this panel  by extending the CT leads.  As you can see; I, have not shortened the wiring that came with the MTU sets.  They are just coiled and tied into bundles.  Wanted to hold future options for using system  somewhere else; later.
QUESTIONS:
1)    Is there a risk of induction errors as I have built the panel?
2)    I must lengthen (5 to 6 Ft) the main lead CT leads if I move the MTU into the new panel.  Will this be a problem?
3)   I have installed a duplex outlet on the new panel.  It is connected to the same hot leg as the MTUs and the Gateway.  I may want to plug the Gateway into this outlet.  I would then add a CAT 5 circuit from my router to the Gateway .   Distance (circuit length) sixty feet +/-).    Is this a problem?
4)   Each of the air handlers are 120 volts.  I have routed the power leg of each through one of the CTs for their companion 240 volt compressor power  legs (same bus leg).  To capture total load on each AC;  along  with heat air handler load in the winter.  Is this a problem?
I appreciate your time in answering my questions and critiquing my PANEL.
Feel free to share any or all of this if it has merit.
Jeff
Handym91220002@yahoo.com 
j
  (http://QUESTION REGARDING POSSIBLE INDUCTION ERRORS INTRODUCED  WHEN  MULTIPLE MTU / CT SETS ARE INSTALLED IN A CONGESTED SMALL SPACE.Gentlemen:I am in Peoria Arizona (Phoenix).   I am the proud owner of a TED 5000 with four MTU / CT sets.   I purchased your product in order to gain accurate data on my electric consumption and demand.I am on a TOU rate with a smart meter (have over 800 days of data from the utility).  Unfortunately, my utility does not include demand in the TOU; and, therefore does not record demand data.  Plus their data sums for on peak and off peak; not  hour  specific.  Another problem is the read times are not the same time each day; AND, if no day read; then, an extrapolated estimate that day based on some unknown history algorithm.  What a country!  I am seriously considering a grid tie solar system.   In order to make an intelligent decision on system size; (and cost!).   I decided to use your equipment to create a data base of actual consumption and demand and combine with a solar calendar by day and hour.  My TOU has different  Summer  and  Winter  on peak and off peak time periods.  Regardless of the season; TOU on peak (some) occurs during NO PRODUCTIVE SUNLIGHT. My home uses gas for:  Heat; water heat; and, range cooking.Major electric loads are two AC units (split Compressors  /  Condensers outside / two  air handlers in gas furnaces; both in attic).  Then a clothes dryer; plus other normal household TVs; Computers; and, appliances. Im loving my TED. So far just installed on main panel feed circuit.  It appears that my VAMPIRE LOAD is running  about 0.75 KW  24 / 7!!! Your asking - - Why is he writing this??? Look at the attached PDF photos.  If I go with the Solar; Im concerned the main panel will become too congested depending on the interconnect configuration.   See photo 2.  The main panel and meter are on the outside front corner of the garage.  I have built a MULTI CIRCUIT MTU / CT PANEL that, when installed will be on the inside of the garage; lined up with the main panel on the outside.  The three circuits to be monitored will be extended and loop through the MTU panel.  See photos page 1.  I may move the main feed MTU into this panel  by extending the CT leads.  As you can see; I, have not shortened the wiring that came with the MTU sets.  They are just coiled and tied into bundles.  Wanted to hold future options for using system  somewhere else; later.QUESTIONS:1) Is there a risk of induction errors as I have built the panel?2) I must lengthen (5 to 6 Ft) the main lead CT leads if I move the MTU into the new panel.  Will this be a problem?3) I have installed a duplex outlet on the new panel.  It is connected to the same hot leg as the MTUs and the Gateway.  I may want to plug the Gateway into this outlet.  I would then add a CAT 5 circuit from my router to the Gateway .   Distance (circuit length) sixty feet +/-).    Is this a problem?4) Each of the air handlers are 120 volts.  I have routed the power leg of each through one of the CTs for their companion 240 volt compressor power  legs (same bus leg).  To capture total load on each AC;  along  with heat air handler load in the winter.  Is this a problem? I appreciate your time in answering my questions and critiquing my PANEL.Feel free to share any or all of this if it has merit.Jeff Handym91220002@yahoo.com  j     I'm stupid.  How do you insert a JPG photo into a POST??????j)
j
Title: Re: Second MTUs - TEDstaff: do you have plans for smaller current transformers?
Post by: TPeterson on July 28, 2013, 09:53:25 PM
TED is not designed to work with other CTs. If your panel has solid bus bars, you should be able to contact your utility company and have them come out to install your CTs on the meter side of the panel, where the leads are not enclosed. Chances are that they've already encountered other TED customers with the same request.
Is this still your recommended approach?  My service panel was just "upgraded" (by an idiot who left the TED stuff disconnected) to the type with solid bus bars (see attached photos) and I was hoping that you'd have by now some more compact CTs.